Friday, November 25, 2011

Netanyahu is lying, but he is also right about the potential of the Arab Spring

Benjamin Netanyahu, speaking before the Israeli Knesset, explained why Israel opposes pro-democracy movements in its region:
He said the Arab Spring was becoming an "Islamic, anti-western, anti-liberal, anti-Israeli, undemocratic wave".

Speaking to the parliament amid renewed protests and violence in Egypt, Mr Netanyahu said concessions to the Palestinians were unwise in a period of instability in the region.

"In February, when millions of Egyptians thronged to the streets in Cairo, commentators and quite a few Israeli members of the opposition said that we're facing a new era of liberalism and progress … They said I was trying to scare the public and was on the wrong side of history and don't see where things are heading." But, he told the Knesset, events had proved him correct.

When he cautioned Barack Obama and other Western leaders against backing the revolt against Hosni Mubarak's regime, he was told he failed to understand reality. "I ask today, who here didn't understand reality? Who here didn't understand history?"
I've seen several polls asking various Middle Eastern populations whether or not they consider Israel as an enforced political majority Jewish entity a legitimate state.

I've never seen even 30% of any population answer yes.

An Egypt that does not consider Israel legitimate (and that thereby reflects the values, beliefs and sensibilities of the Egyptian people), even if for pragmatic reasons it does not break the treaty or send tanks toward Tel Aviv, makes Israel as an enforced Jewish political majority state a lot less viable. For example, just by making it impossible to squeeze the people of Gaza if they elect a party like Hamas.

If Saudi Arabia, which already spends more than 2.5 times as much as Israel on weapons, has a bigger area, and whose location could put all of Israel's territory under a modern anti-aircraft umbrella, had policies that matched the values, beliefs and sensibilities of its people it would render Israel as an enforced Jewish political majority state almost immediately non-viable.

Egypt becoming democratic not only threatens Israel directly, but weakens by example the dictatorships Israel needs in Jordan, Saudi Arabia and others.

Netanyahu is basically right. Israel needs a region of pro-US colonial-style dictatorships. He uses terms as favorable to his party and to Israel as possible, but looking past those terms, if the US is unwilling to support dictatorships, there can be no Israel.

That puts the questions back on Westerners. Are you willing to support colonial dictatorships for Israel's sake, how much are you willing to sacrifice of your own blood and treasure to do that, and how do you justify your stance?


Lidia said...

Since the beginning of Egypt's revolution there was  a lot of "clever" comparisons. My "favorite" was one to Poland 1989, as if pro-USA movement calling for capitalism and making up with Zionism had ANYTHING to do with Egypt reality (not mentioning the  role of CIA in Poland). But I suppose some people just cannot help kidding themselves or others. (Comparison with "liberated" Iraq is just too out of any league)

Israel "left" Zionists were also, as usual, smocking something strong enough to argue that democratic rule in Arab states would be good to Israel :) But people like Netahiahu know better. They are lairs, but they lie less to themselves. Exactly because of it, they were even more staunch  allies of  Mubarak than even Obama. 

Arnold Evans said...

In the West, regarding the Middle East, we see such a blizzard or orgy of lies and deception, to themselves and each other and to their audiences that it defies description.

Westerners, even liberals, say they want the Middle East to have democracy, but not real democracy, they want a form of democracy where the US still sets their foreign policy.  That's good enough for the people of the Middle East.

But they don't even admit this to themselves.  They avoid the topic or they offer rationalizations or generally play stupid, which in most cases is accurate because most Westerners do not think about the Middle East much, but in some cases, like Juan Cole and Barack Obama, is willfully deceptive.

The tension between US claimed ideals and Zionism has profoundly distorted the Western discussion about the Middle East.

Lidia said...

I see that Cole let you corner his fan Joe FL regarding Obama's supposed support of Egypt revolution :) I guess Cole still wants to look at least a bit "liberal" in his comment section. Maybe because of it there are more comments to post about Netaniahu than to post about how Americans should be happy for murdering a lot of Libyans without being killed in return. I doubt that I was the only one sickened by such "good news". 

It seems to me that Cole needs to preserve an illusion of his blog being "progressive". So much cheer for bombing of Libya while being much less critical about the murderous but pro-USA regimes could be too much even for typical Obama supporter. So, he is posturing as "anti-Likudnik" (as if Zionism is not the same in Likud or in Merez).  

ZionistExistentialist said...

Interesting. My whole youth I was told in S Africa to go to Israel. Now I am told to go elsewhere - where ? My family's crematorium?
I am totally against Liar Bi bi and run from demonstration to demonstration till I have become exhausted.
My questions are:How did you socialists suddenly become such Nationalists when Palestinians are concerned? Never mind the millions upon millions of Africans being killed with hardly a whimper from you, why is nothing said about the Kurds being oppressed in a far more unfair situation that the Palestinians. Nothing is said about the tens of thousands of missiles pointed at us from all sides - which could cause more death and destruction than any atomic bomb. Wort of all the missile are situated in warehouse that, if a war does break, out will cause unlimited collateral damage to the Lebanese, Gazaneans, Syrians, Iranians. Of course we will again be blamed for our own survival. My favorite question is - if all us Jews leave Israel, I wonder if the British would accept 6million us money sucking Jews? Even as a left wing socialist   I think we will have to keep our rifles clean and magazines full - especially because of things I read here.

Arnold Evans said...

I'm offended by a couple of elements of this comment.

1) Jews were never expelled from South Africa. You were told to leave for Israel why? It seems to me that you and those around you couldn't stand the indignity of living in Southern Africa in a politically majority Black state.

That reflects badly on you and those telling you to leave more than it does on South Africa.

2) Which leads to the second point that nobody here, and no major organization or government in the Middle East is saying Jewish individuals must be expelled from Palestine.  Again, this is not about expulsion, cremation or survival.  This is about you avoiding the indignity of living under non-Jewish majority rule.

It is somewhat interesting, I guess, to see that you've concocted these survival, expulsion and cremation fantasies that you've put in service of your maybe white-supremacist, or maybe Jewish-supremacist idea that living under non-white, non-Jewish political majority rule is intolerable.  But those fantasies and your sense of indignity were not caused by anything you've read in this blog.

Zionism is unique in the current world in its intersection of professed liberalism and the directly contradictory ideas of racial (whether white- or Jewish-) supremacy.

The post you replied to says that for Israel as a political majority Jewish state to be viable, over 400 million non-Jews in the region must live under pro-US dictators or be continuously sanctioned and bombed.  You don't claim that statement is false, but I guess for you fewer than six million Jewish people outweigh more than 400 million non-Jewish people.

That is the fundamental requirement of Zionism. It's racist.  You're racist.  Your claims to be socialist or to oppose Netanyahu, if anything, make it worse because if true that would add hypocrisy to your list of shortcomings.

There are certainly people in the world worse than you.  Feel welcome and free to criticize any post you find here for any reason that strikes you.

lysander1 said...

 The problem is not where you are to go, but rather how you got to where you are. You live in a colony that came into existence by ethnic cleansing and maintains its existence through apartheid and, with the help of the US and west, military intimidation of it's neighbors. Additionally, the US and the west sanction and threaten with attack any country that threatens to out grow Israel and become stronger. (Iran now, Iraq previously)

Also to maintain Israel's existence, classic imperial divide and conquer strategy is employed. Most recently it is Sunni vs Shia, which started with the invasion of Iraq and could likely have been one of the unstated reasons.

These conditions do not apply to your aforementioned examples of the Kurds or Africa. Also, there are plenty of people advocating for the rights of the Kurds. What is different is that those advocates need not suffer a mass of hasbarists attacking them. No congressman would loose an election for speaking on behalf of Africans. We are not treated day and night to congressional resolutions praising Turkey for some massive attack on its eastern villages. Presidential candidates do not get in line to tell us how awesome Turkey is and how we must support its every single move. No elected official will loose his job being critical of Turkey.

Those are just some of the differences. It probably does not answer your question about where you are to go, but it is not the responsibility of Palestinians to find a home for you, or to allow you to take theirs.

Arnold Evans said...

Who or what are you responding to here?

ZionistExistentialist said...

1. I left S Africa in 1967 besides being a Zionist I was attacked frequently - sometimes physically for being against apartheid. Members of my family were jailed. I was told to get out of south Africa mainly by the Afrikaners when I was unfortunately conscripted into the SADF ( i volunteered for the IDF and fought in battle after battle till my brain turned into a cluster bomb). I've seen the behaviour of the Israeli soldier in 3D. There are maniacs around but I promise you - and I know you will have a knee jerk reaction, there is no army - especially one that's on the defensive so well behaved.
2. Iran for one. Obviously you havent read the platform of hamas or hezbolla - btw both not for a Palestanian state!
3 A huge chunk of family were murdered in the holocaust.My grand father had his head smashed in on the second day in Dachau - with absolutely no one around to save him as we here - as individuals do. 50% of our population is linked directly to the holocaust - so we tend to over-arm ourselves. You have a hutspa to call us racists. Especially when we arent a race! We are a people of every type and creed with a common heritage.
5 JEWISH SUPRMACY!!!!! Over whom?? I have never heard that before. In my opinion we should leave the west bank before morning coffee. - even knowing that more than likely they will be shooting into Tel Aviv by lunch.
6 Of course we have to have a country with a Jewish majority. Can you for the sake of whatever think of one people we can trust!
7 You arent a racist - you just cant handle money grabbing, eating matsa made from little gentile children, blowing up the twin towers,Jews

And BTW you have not only insulted me but my people and those ashes still sinking in the stinking forests of Europe.

Arnold Evans said...

Are you sure you didn't make up the part about "money grabbing, eating matsa made from little gentile children, blowing up the twin towers, Jews"?

That's your imagination insulting you.  Not me. I had nothing to do with it.

ZionistExistentialist said...

I do realize that we have displaced the Palestinians and I do feel guilt. Arnold you write as if were colonialists after the gold and oil. There is NOTHING here but hi-tech and a few miserable sheep. Without the Negev Desert we are one of the most densely populated countries. But many many countries - especially after the second world war had similar situations of population swapping. 40% or more of our population are made up of Jews who were forced to leave Arab countries penniless. The difference is that we absorbed our brothers even when we were bankrupt while the Arabs kept them in camps to this day as political pawns. In Lebanon they aren't even allowed to work! The difference between a Palestinian and a Jordanian is zip.

As a matter of interest when we were attacked in 48 by 6 Arab armies we had almost no armaments. Chechesko gave us ww1 rifles as we had saved his life. (which in 67 were called Chekis) and we stole ww2 planes from american ( who were boycotting us) junk yards. Many of the soldiers came straight from the camps to the front. With the slogan Hazak Ve'ematz (strength and courage). Which I say over and over as I write to you! ( don't respond to last sentence - just miserable humor)

ZionistExistentialist said...

If you think there is no diffence between likud and meretz you are either drunk, high on drugs or totally ignorant of Israel  Quickly do some Googling. 

Wait a minute - are you telling me there is no difference between hamas and the plo?????

ZionistExistentialist said...

Arnold I forgot the main item - how do we keep 400 million people suffering? The Palestinians - maybe yes - but 400 million oil rich Arabs - please explain!
Please don't take it as an insult but it sounds like Hitler saying that we were to blame for Versailles.

Lidia said...

OK, I suppose it is my turn.
1) You have not "displaced" Palestinians - you have murdered, robbed, raped and tortured them. If you felt even SOME guilt for those crimes, you would not use such stupid word.
2) The arable land and water are precious in the ME, and the robbery of it was/is the basis of an aparteid "Jewish state". Not  mentioning the chuzpa of a robber citing about the poor quality of his loot. 
3) Arab Jews (Mizrahim) were victims of Zionism, without Zionism they still would be a prosperous part of the ME. YOU are to blame for their plight, including Zionist terrorism to force them leave and become cannot fodder for Zionist colonialism.

4) Enough. I am fed up with hasbara - the same lies and distortions no matter the nickname.

EVERY line in ZE post is a lie.

By the way, I would be offended for Existentialism, were not Camus a well-know anti-Arab racist and defender of French colonialism, unlike Sartre. I suppose the nick CamusZionist would  sound more truthful. But since when Zionists care for truth...

Arnold Evans said...

Let's say you get me to agree with your arguments about how reasonable it was to found Israel in 1948.  Do you think the arguments you make to me would work with most of the people in an audience in Cairo, Beirut, Amman or Demascus?

I don't think your arguments would be persuasive there.  I don't think you or Barack Obama think your arguments would be convincing to most of the more than 400 million people in your region who are not Jewish.

So then what?

Should those  more than 400 million people live under colonial-style pro-US dictatorships?  Should any who escape from the US' colonial grip be sanctioned, denied technology, their governments destabilized with bombings and other violence?

If you say no to my question, then you can't be a Zionist for Israel as we know it.

If you say yes to my question, you're a bigot of some sort.  You'll say Jews aren't a race, so you're not racist. That's not really the point though.  A huge number of people who are not Jewish should suffer for a much smaller number of Jews to have a majority state.  It is just as bad as racism even if you get away with this idea that you're not racist because Jews aren't a race.

Arnold Evans said...

Also, to reply further, hit reply to the original post so that these comments don't get thinner and thinner until they cannot be read.

Lidia said...

The best proof that Zionists are not interested in learning and discussion, only in planting even more hasbara. ZE does not even bother to read Arnold's post! 

Arnold Evans said...

I'm not sure what to say, ZE.  Did you read the post you've written a half-dozen responses to?

ZionistExistentialist said...

If you have internal problem seek a foreign war.
If you have discontent in a feudalistic country hate Israel
That is for sure the sitution - up until now - of the dictators and feudalist leaders of the oppressed Arab people. If we werent around they would have found something else. This is the case throughout history.
And you are right it cant be explained in the cties.
Did you know that if you asked anyone - from fallah to proffesor who destroyed the twin towers they all come out with - the mossad!
I dont know what the solution is. Certainly making peace with the Palestinian who be a very good start - and if I believed in a god I would be praying for this every 10 times a day. I could close the deal in half a cup of coffee. Both sides really want it. From our side, for the time being, I think God has come in the way. But things do change. The teaparty BB economics has upset something like 90% of the country - so we will see!
Boy do I detest him.

ZionistExistentialist said...

Camus as far as I know never mentioned Arab or anything about the struggle. He refused to be a Stalinist and thus broke with Sartre

My sister was Stalinist ( my father Trotskite tendencies) now she is developing property in London. Very strange. But such is life. Did you know we had 2 communist parties here. Now 1. In knesset and TLV municpalty. oops they are all to be killed right?

Arnold Evans said...


And you are right it cant be explained in the cities.

Good. We agree on that.  So now what?

If you can't explain how Israel is legitimate in a convincing way to the people in Riyadh, then how can Israel or the US prevent the people of Riyadh who don't think Israel is legitimate from matching Israel's nuclear program, putting anti-aircraft weapons on their own territory to range over Israel and saying "no airplanes can enter or leave Israel until all of the refugees and their descendants have been accepted and there is no longer a Jewish majority state"?

Saudi Arabia has the resources to do that, but does not because is ruled by a pro-US dictatorship against the local values of its own people.

Lidia's point stands.  This is repeating what is in the post you're commenting on. If you didn't bother read it, I shouldn't bother engage you.

But since I've written this much,

Israel cannot survive, it seems you'll admit, without a much larger group of people than Israel's Jewish population being denied the right to accountable government.

If that's OK with you, then you're racist.  Notwithstanding your claim that Jews are not a race, just an ethnic group connected by blood.

Lidia said...

As far as a Zionist knows he has not even read "Orientalism" by E.Said. Typical.

Arnold, I admire your patience :) As I do not have it, I could only shrug  by this Zionist. I suppose he just copy-pastes usual hasbara staff trying to liven it by his own   
ridiculous non-sequitur.

Lidia said...

Both Likud and Merez are Zionists. It is only what really  matters. Both are for Zionist crimes against Palestinians. Of course, they differ in their attitude regarding Zionist Jews. But it is of no interest to any non-Zionist, i.e. to the majority of the world population. 

PLO and Hamas are NOT settler colonialist fractions. So it was one more ZE non-sequitur.

Lidia said...

By the way, this ZE is the best proof of my previous observation that Zionism is the same in Likud and Merez. ZE says he hates Bibi, but ZE's "arguments" are the same as of every Zionist I have ever met. Nothing new here  but ZE "personal" trifle :)

ZionistExistentialist said...

Lidia as we write the Syrians are blasting their own people, torturing raping and all the things you say we do. This doesn't bother you. You prefer to live in a fantasy land of horrible Jews. Just about every war in the last 30 years has involved moslems. This doesn't bother you. 3,000,000 Ugandsans killed - this doesn't bother you. 2,000,000 Somalis killed = this doesn't bother you. The Turks well being Turks to the Kurds - this doesn't bother you.
What bothers you is the remainders of the Jews wanting a fortress to live and do computer programming without, for once, being slaughtered.
ALL THE OTHER STUFF YOU SAY WE DO IS RUBBISH. But you are so filled with hate there is nothing I can write to have think other wise. You aren't even interested in any kind of peace. 
Lidia, I live on the Northern border a few kilometers away from 45,000 missile pointing at my head. Do u know I am not scared - I have my brothers with me . You cant say that in any Arab country (yet).
I am theoretically interested in what you have to say but your hate emotion is so high its impossible. I worked for Peace Now and made quite a few Palestinian friends they just don't have your vibe.

There is an old black and white movie of the 1st WW which is my favorite hobby, on TV - so I will be leaving. Keep writing, most probably I wont answer. I cant handle hate.

Hitlers crime (in my opinion) wasn't the killing - it was the 'generalization'  You generalize about everything. That certainly isnt intellectual thought - its propaganda

Arnold Evans said...

It looks like this person just wanted to vent.  Not sure what he or she thought they would accomplish. But they definitely didn't make Zionists seem reasonable or their position defensible.

Lidia said...

Zionist speaking about "hate" is rich :)

By the way, why Zionists think that I am waiting for answer from them? I only comment on their hasbara (always the same) to point to their lies. I know for some time now that it is a waste of time to communicate with Zionists :(

By the way, I still cannot get why Zionist like to pretend than they give a damn about non-Jews. (see ZE about Syrians).

peace now? Yes, I am aware of those Zionists. They are the same Zionists as Gush Emunim. Only PN is less open about their racist notion that Palestinian land belongs to Jews than GE.

And if somebody does not want to be a  target of Hezbollah, one ONLY should stop to occupy Palestinian/Lebanese land. very simple, but not so to Zionists :(

Lidia said...

Arnold, you are too kind, as usual. ZE is just copy-pasting hasbara. Even if he (?) adds some twists about his(?) person, it is still the same stale hasbara  as usual :(

ZionistExistentialist said...

Lidia - get it into your brain. We are never leaving our ancestral homeland. Get used to this idea. Think how to make peace taking this into account. Or don't.
I really have stopped caring. If Iran doesn't stop building bombs we will stop them - the way we have been doing it or another. (BTW if a bomb drops on TA more than half the West Bank Palestinians will die from it. But why should you care - as long as your sick need for hate is fulfilled.) Anyway that's it we are here for ever. In the 73 war we lost 3000 -
one and a half days of Auschwitz - so we are in a good way however you look at it. 
BTW as an interest do u think terror is a legitimate weapon?

ZionistExistentialist said...

PLO wants to make peace. Hamas wants us to disappear. I reckon that's a difference - no?

ZionistExistentialist said...

PEACE now is Arab Jewish  - do you mean the Arab members were Zionist. Good Heavens -= I never realized

ZionistExistentialist said...

MY EX WAS AN Irish Catholic BUT YOU ARE RIGHT At the end i didn't care so much about her. My kids are genetically half Jewish and the best combat captains the IDF has ever had. I know he would walk on an ant but who knows maybe he went off raping and pillaging. 2nd thought - nope they are the most gentle people in the world.

ZionistExistentialist said...

hmm so 3 days ago there was a difference!!!!!!!!!! be consitant

ZionistExistentialist said...


Lidia said...

Arnold, I suppose we'll ignore ZE from now. We have said enough to refute his(?) staple of hasbara, and I am not interested to pay it more attention that it warrants.

By the way, ZE is truly ridiculous. Now I am a Lebanese :) Not that I would mind to be one, of course.

ZionistExistentialist said...

Wrong again ( to some degree) 
1 we have a water ctreaty with Jordan as part of the Peace treaty - Water from the sea of Galili. 
2. We make our own water from the sea. The biggest plant in the world and 3 more still to be built. We have offered water to Gaza who have refused. 
3 Right - the settlers are assholes!!!

ZionistExistentialist said...

As I said - boom go another nuclear plant - and squibble squibble another Virus.
Hey Lidia dont mess with us 

ZionistExistentialist said...

I know Lebanon - up to Beirut VERY well!