Sunday, March 04, 2012

What is sacrosanct for the United States: Israel or Democracy?


A quick look at two contradictory passages from Barack Obama's speech to AIPAC:
In many ways, this award is a symbol of the broader ties that bind our nations. The United States and Israel share interests, but we also share those human values that Shimon spoke about: a commitment to human dignity. A belief that freedom is a right that is given to all of God's children. An experience that shows us that democracy is the one and only form of government that can truly respond to the aspirations of citizens.
and
Four years ago, I stood before you and said that, "Israel's security is sacrosanct. It is non-negotiable." That belief has guided my actions as president. The fact is my administration's commitment to Israel's security has been unprecedented. Our military and intelligence cooperation has never been closer. Our joint exercises and training have never been more robust. Despite a tough budget environment, our security assistance has increased every single year. We are investing in new capabilities. We're providing Israel with more advanced technology the types of products and systems that only go to our closest friends and allies. And make no mistake: We will do what it takes to preserve Israel's qualitative military edge because Israel must always have the ability to defend itself, by itself, against any threat.
The question this raises is could Israel preserve both its qualitative military edge and the ability to defend itself, by itself against any threat if, among others, Saudi Arabia was not ruled by a pro-US dictatorship?

If not, then Barack Obama as US President doing what it takes to preserve Israel's advantage means working to ensure that Saudi Arabia continues to be ruled by what is effectively a colonial government subordinate to the US.

We've seen before that Saudi Arabia spends more than 2.5 times as much as Israel does on its military.
Military spending
Rank Country Spending ($) % of GDP Per capita ($)
8 Saudi Arabia 42,917,000,000 11.2% 1,524
18 Israel 13,001,000,000 6.3% 1,882
We've seen that the vast majority of Arab populations consider Israel one of the two primary threats to them. (With a majority considering the US itself the other.)
Name TWO countries that you think pose the biggest threat to you.

Israel 71%
United States 59%
Iran 18%
Westerners like the misleading poll result that Arab populations are "prepared for peace" if Israel returns ALL of the territory Israel captured in 1967. But let's look at that result more closely. (Same poll as above.)
Which of the following statements is closer to your view?

24% - Prepared for peace if Israel is willing to return all 1967 territories including East Jerusalem, and Arab governments should put more effort into this

43% - Prepared for peace if Israel is willing to return all 1967 territories including East Jerusalem, but Israel will never give up these territories easily

23% - Even if Israel returns all 1967 territories, Arabs should continue to fight
Despite the contorted and indirect way this this question is posed, its result is that only 24% of Arab populations want their governments to put more effort into getting Israel to return all 1967 territories. Worded as it is, if this poll is correct, the official position of the pro-US colonial dictatorships may still only have the support of distinct minorities of their populations.

I'll also note that it would not be inconsistent for a person to be "prepared for peace if Israel returns all 1967 territories and want his or her government to put more effort into this" while also believing Israel is not legitimate, should not exist, and that a transition to Arab/Muslim majority rule would still be preferable to Israel returning all 1967 territories.

43% of these populations would be "prepared for peace" if Israel was to return ALL of the land captured in 1967 without any additional effort from their governments. Barack Obama does not call for Israel returning all 1967 territories. No Israeli leader, left or right, has ever offered to do so.

Leaving aside the difference between to accept and to be "prepared for peace", how many of these 43% would be prepared for peace if instead of returning all captured land, Israel was to offer a resolution along the outlines that Israel's supporters discuss: Israel annexes territory where there are currently large settlements, offers a very limited right to return, if any, and the remaining Palestine is demilitarized and physically blocked by Israeli or US troops from Jordanian territory? Let's just say the pollsters of Brookings would prefer you not to know the answer to that question. I'm sure for good reason from their points of view, as Western supporters of Zionism as a project.

We've seen a poll of the Iranian people that asks about acceptance of Israel without Brookings' misdirection. Unlike that of Saudi Arabia Iran's population is mostly non-Arab and mostly not Sunni. There is no reason to expect the opposition of the people of Saudi Arabia to Israel to be less than that of the Iranian people.
18. Level of agreement - The state of Israel is illegitimate and should not exist.

Strong Agreement: 51.9%
Mild Agreement: 14.6% (total agree, 66.5%)
Neutral: 21.1%
Mild Disagreement: 4.6%
Strong Disagreement: 3.9% (total disagree 8.5%)
Saudi Arabia does not have to cooperate with an explicit US pledge to be militarily inferior to a country that spends 60% less than it does on arms. It is absurd to think a government that represents the values, perceptions and sensibilities of the people of Saudi Arabia would do so. Democracy for Saudi Arabia would mean at least taking the risk that the US would be unable to maintain its commitment to Israel. Barack Obama stood before the audience at AIPAC and said that it is a risk he would not take.

The US' founding value of democracy - as well as Obama's poetic and dishonest statement that he believes freedom is a gift deserved by all of God's children - is not quite as sacrosanct as the string of colonial dictatorships Obama maintains for the sake of Israel, including Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, Kuwait, UAE and others.

6 comments:

Dermot Moloney said...

"raises is could Israel preserve both its qualitative military edge and the ability to defend itself, by itself against any threat if, among others, Saudi Arabia was not ruled by a pro-US dictatorship?"
Again it likely would, for even with the us and sa being allies sa has engaged in hostile activities with israel has shown by wikileaks.

"to be ruled by what is effectively a colonial government subordinate to the US."

Effectively? A slight back track from your usual claims. 

"Despite the contorted and indirect way this this question is posed"

Arnold your shaky beliefs rested on certain presumptions that this poll has shown to be false, now you are trying to spin it in such a way that it does do such a thing.

The poll clearly shows that the majority of arabs support peace in return for certain territories. Only a minority support your idea of fighting israel until it no longer exists. You made an error, for once in your life man up and accept that your earlier analysis was wrong.

"43% of these populations would be "prepared for peace" if Israel was to return ALL of the land captured in 1967 without any additional effort from their governments."

It doesnt actually state that, it states "Prepared for peace if Israel is willing to return all 1967 territories including East Jerusalem, but Israel will never give up these territories easily"

Its quite likely that this 43% would like to see their governments put extra effort into the task whilst also believing that israel would not give up these areas easily, i know that this is my view.

"the string of colonial dictatorships Obama maintains for the sake of Israel, including Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, Kuwait, UAE and others."

This has been debunked by me time and time again, it would be fine if you were to repeat this after defending your belief even somewhat moderately but you have failed to do so time and time again.

Imagine a debate were someone makes a claim, the other person counters this claim, the person who made it then remains silent for a bit....and then.....simply makes the same claim that was shown to be flawed. 

Out of curiosity why havent you shown one of the latest zogby poll showing that despite your claims most arabs have a negative view of irans role?

I believe the reason is that it does not confirm with your beliefs, so you ignore, by doing so you really are no better than the likes of fox news.

Lidia said...

New interesting poll about Arab opinon on Israel and Palstine


http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/03/20123793355501965.html

Some numbers

A high 84 per cent believe the Palestinian question is the cause of all Arabs and not the Palestinians only.
A high 84 per cent reject the notion of their state's recognition of Israel and only 21 per cent support, to a certain degree, the peace agreement signed between Egypt, Jordan and the PLO with Israel. Less than a third agree with their government's foreign policy

And the support for results of previous polls

Contrary to mainstream global media coverage, 73 per cent of those polled see Israel and the US as the two most threatening countries. Five per cent see Iran as the most threatening, a percentage that varies between countries and regions.

Arnold Evans said...

Wow.  Thanks.  I can't wait to see the results in English.

The pdf in Arabic:

http://dohainstitute.org/file/Get/97a542a9-5524-415d-950a-5a0c4b2b4b27

Dermot Moloney said...

Lidia with all due respect you are not really in a position to bring up polling data for you are a person who rejects polling data when it is not to your liking while accepting it when it is.

I mean this is one of the things which highlights if cerain people suffer from a bad case of confirmation bias.

They accept evidence to their liking while dismissing evidence that is not without good reason.

Dermot Moloney said...

It seems that you cant even follow your own
rules.


 


I answered your questions using the def you
provided and stated yes or no to the series of questions.


 


Its clear that you are trying to censor me for
you have difficulty countering my posts.


 


Dont worry, ill just save my posts and post them
again and again.


 


I would usually just say have it your way and
move on but considering how childish and rude you have been when it was you who
was in the wrong ( and it was ) im not declined to do so.


 


 


 


"raises is could Israel preserve both its
qualitative military edge and the ability to defend itself, by itself against
any threat if, among others, Saudi Arabia was not ruled by a pro-US
dictatorship?"


 


Again it likely would, for even with the us and
sa being allies sa has engaged in hostile activities with israel has shown by
wikileaks.


 


"to be ruled by what is effectively a
colonial government subordinate to the US."


 


Effectively? A slight back track from your usual
claims.


 


"Despite the contorted and indirect way this
this question is posed"


 


Arnold your shaky beliefs rested on certain
presumptions that this poll has shown to be false, now you are trying to spin
it in such a way that it does do such a thing.


 


The poll clearly shows that the majority of arabs
support peace in return for certain territories. Only a minority support your
idea of fighting israel until it no longer exists. You made an error, for once
in your life man up and accept that your earlier analysis was wrong.


 


"43% of these populations would be
"prepared for peace" if Israel was to return ALL of the land captured
in 1967 without any additional effort from their governments."


 


It doesnt actually state that, it states
"Prepared for peace if Israel is willing to return all 1967 territories
including East Jerusalem, but Israel will never give up these territories
easily"


 


Its quite likely that this 43% would like to see
their governments put extra effort into the task whilst also believing that
israel would not give up these areas easily, i know that this is my view.


 


"the string of colonial dictatorships Obama
maintains for the sake of Israel, including Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt,
Kuwait, UAE and others."


 


This has been debunked by me time and time again,
it would be fine if you were to repeat this after defending your belief even
somewhat moderately but you have failed to do so time and time again.


 


Imagine a debate were someone makes a claim, the
other person counters this claim, the person who made it then remains silent
for a bit....and then.....simply makes the same claim that was shown to be
flawed.


 


Out of curiosity why havent you shown one of the
latest zogby poll showing that despite your claims most arabs have a negative
view of irans role?


 


I believe the reason is that it does not confirm
with your beliefs, so you ignore, by doing so you really are no better than the
likes of fox news.

N. Friedman said...

If Arabs believed in large numbers that Spain should be restored to Muslim rule, would you make demands on Spain? Or, would you tell such Arabs that Andalusia was lost and it is time to move on?

On your logic, whatever prejudice is held by the majority of Arabs must be accepted and supported. Calling your support of Arab bigotry anti-colonialism does not make the Arab view any less prejudiced.