Thursday, December 31, 2009

Israel is very confident in US' commitment to prevent Iran from enriching uranium

Preventing uranium enrichment on Iranian soil is not an accomplishable goal, nor is it a goal the US needs on its own behalf. However, on Israel's behalf the Barack Obama administration is committed to that goal, according to Obama's spokesman, Israel's Ambassador to the US, Michael Oren.
"I'm very confident in America's commitment to dissuading Iran from enriching uranium on its soil, which is our common goal," Oren told Reuters in a telephone interview.

"Our positions on Iran completely dovetail and we have very close cooperation and communication."
I just want to point out that if the political configuration of a country requires it to have unilateral and unanswerable threat of nuclear attack on all other countries in its region, and also requires dictatorships over the populations of its direct neighbors then that political configuration is too expensive in terms of total human costs to be allowed to continue.

Israel as a majority Jewish state is untenable in the same sense that South Africa as a majority White state was untenable. The United States is not willing to directly attack Iran, so there is a limit to the cost it will bear to support Israel's identity as a Jewish state, but short of that Israel still exacts a tremendous cost by distorting US priorities throughout the region.

A one state solution may not ensure that there is always a Jewish majority state in Palestine, but it would not require its neighbors to be coerced, sanctioned or attacked to prevent them from having enrichment technology that is acceptable everywhere else in the world. It also would not require starving the people of Gaza, propping up autocratic regimes Egypt's and Jordan's that cooperate with that starvation or occupying countries like Iraq and Afghanistan to prevent their resources from being used to avenge injustices reasonably attributed Israel and its supporters.

Israel has turned the entire greater Middle East region into an endless sink for US human, military, diplomatic and financial resources. Support for Israel as a Jewish state also causes the US to pursue policies that harm the lives of nearly every non-Jewish person in the region, with the predictable consequence that it builds the ranks of those who consider harming Americans an act of defense.

It is a great disappointment that Barack Obama has shown that he lacks the vision or strength to change US policy regarding securing Israel's Jewish majority status at tremendous cost to itself.


N. Friedman said...


Israel's objective vis a vis Iran is to not to preclude Iran from uranium enrichment. That is just rhetoric. The Israelis know full well that such goal is not possible.

Israel's real objective is to prevent Iran from having the bomb. In that objective, it has common cause with all Sunni states, the United States and Europe. Lest you not believe me, read what European leaders say about the subject. That goal may or may not be achievable. Time will tell.

The issue with Iran is not so much that it might obtain the bomb, the issue is the nature of the regime, which rightfully scares people outside of Iran. Which is to say, Sunnis, Jews and Europeans know full well that the leadership of Iran includes scary elements that, if taken at their word, seek martyrdom for themselves and their country. All see a nuclear Iran as an existential danger, to one extent or another.

Now, if Israel is a disruption to the Muslim regions, so be it. Israel will fight for its survival, as your possible alternative of a single state would seem to me a state under Islamic, theocratic rule.

And, that is something that Jews are not willing to accept and will fight to prevent. And, saying, as you might, that a secular state would be a good thing does not change the reality that a theocratic Islamic state - even if it is theocratic light, as in the West Bank - has nothing in it for Jews, much less Christians.

Your comment, I might add, is reminiscent of comments made by those who thought it wise to appease the Nazi state, back in the 1930's. This is not to suggest that the Arabs are the Nazis. It is merely to say that your approach amounts to throwing Jews to their fate in order to "buy" peace.

My suggestion: the reason the Arab regions are the way they are is primarily lack of literacy, bad governance and too much religion. Without solving those problems, the Arab and greater Muslim regions are still a hotbed of turmoil, with or without Israel. And, frankly, I see no reason why Jews should sacrifice themselves to make it easy for Muslims or anyone else. And, I know few Israeli Jews who are willing to do that, so you are, I think, barking up the wrong tree, preaching for something that has no possibility of occurring.

lidia said...

NF : Zionist blah, blah, blah


Arnold, you should, I suppose, pay more attention to Palestininan and Lebanese Christians, who are mostly anti-Zionist

N. Friedman said...


You might note the exodus of Christians from the Middle East. Upwards of 60 million of fled in the last half century, including much of Lebanon's Christian population, which is a small fraction of itself prior self. And, the same is happening in Palestinian Arab territories as well.

Lysander said...

NF, I can tell you that most of the Sunni world greatly admires Iran for standing up to the west. Trust me, they really, really do. Hardly anyone in Egypt or Jordan is concerned Iran might nuke up. Indeed, most are hoping it will.

Now, Egyptian of Jordanian governments might be concerned, but not because they fear any Iranian attack on them (probability of which, zero in a gazillion bazillion) Rather, they fear Iran for the same reason Pierre Laval feared Charles De Gaul. Ahmadinejad is far more popular in Egypt than is Mubarak.

And despite that, EVEN THOSE governments are terrified of the prospect of an Israeli/US attack on Iran. Probably much more frightened than is Iran.

Your comments about Israel fighting to maintain "survival" are well taken. Neither I nor Arnold, anticipate Israel doing anything else. Arnold's point however is that Israel's "survival" entails the US expend substantial resources now, and that far more resources will be required in the future.

Also, that Israel's "survival" depends on continued ethnic cleansing, apartheid, and compliant governments keeping their people in check.

It also requires substantial resources, more than is available, to prevent Iran from obtaining nuclear CAPABILITY, not merely an actual weapon.

The nature of the Iranian government, really will not matter. No Iranian government, other than a puppet government, will accept anything besides its full potential. No Israeli government can tolerate a Muslim country more powerful than itself, even if the government is less hostile than Iran's.

Cheers and happy new year.

Anonymous said...

NF, you will not find many Christian Arab Zionist sympathizers in the expat community. That is not to say there will be zero, just not very many. Again, trust me on that.

Lysander said...

That was me

lidia said...

Lisander, happy new year!

Palestinian Christian leaders, representing churches and church-related organisations, have launched a "landmark campaign" aimed at enlisting Christians worldwide in proactive efforts to end the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories, reports Khaled Amayreh in Bethlehem. The unprecedented initiative, called "Kairos Palestine-2009: A moment of truth", appeals to churches worldwide to treat Israel in the same way they had treated the erstwhile South African apartheid regime.

N. Friedman said...


I can only go on what I have read, which is that there is considerable hostility towards Shi'a from Sunni and vice versa. I have even heard that on NPR, having heard a Palestinian professor, from the WB, state that having Shi'a rule in Iraq goes contrary to the natural order of things. And, I have heard it said that all Arab states are scared of Iran. I cannot speak for average people but I do note that war and peace are generally acts of states.

I never said that there is no price for US support of Israel. But, there would also be costs to withdrawing support, which would include having hostility from a nuclear armed state, Israel, and, more than likely, no better relations with the Arabs and Arab states than at present. And, it all assumes that having a friendly Arab regions outweighs the benefits and detriments of Israel, which is not an obvious thing at all.

As for your comment about apartheid, cleansing, etc., that is all propaganda. Were Israel to want to drive away Palestinian Arabs, their numbers would be decreasing, not increasing. And, as for Apartheid, that is a misunderstanding of what was a policy in South Africa, not the fact of two groups that do not get along, with contrary ideologies that cannot be reconciled. The Jewish liberation movement, aka Zionism, aims to liberate Jews, who were for most of the last several thousands years, an oppressed people, whether in Europe or in the Arab regions.

And, on top of that, Jews have a right, just like all other groups, to call someplace home and to fight to make a home in that place. That, after all, is how all groups on Earth came to have homes.

In Europe, Jews were told, rather universally, that they were Asiatics, not Europeans, and many Europeans - large numbers, by the way - took the view that Jews did not belong in Europe. In Arab countries, Jews were treated as, at best, second class citizens. And, from the 1930's on, Jews have been pushed around in Arab states and were driven out of most of them entirely.

Only the US, other than Israel, has provided Jew with real equality in the last 100 years. So, why should Jews cooperate with the preferences of Arabs or Europeans, who do not have Jewish interests at heart? Why should Jews care to cooperate with a program, as you propose, that benefits Arabs, a group which has never treated Jews as equals?

What you are really favoring is to alter the chemistry in the Middle East to where it would be far more dangerous than today. And for what? What do Arabs have going for them, apart from a temporary resource that is running out, that benefits the US? What matter of justice says that resolving the dispute between Arabs and Israelis requires concessions from Jews, rather than Arabs? Has there not already been a quid pro quo for what became of the regions Arabs in what the Arabs did to their Jewish populations? And, please do not deny it. I am a scholar on this issue.

lidia said...

More Zionist lies from NF. I hope he at least got rewarded for such anpleasant task :)

lidia said...

By the way, if USA stop supporting Israel, there would be NOT any "nuclear armed state" Israel and very soon. Not mentioning other nonsense of NF

b said...

Congratulation Arnold,

the Zionists deem your blog so important that they assigned a Hasbara slave to post their ever same-old stupid arguments in the comments.

(I never managed to get that far :-))

It only proves you are right on the point.

Lysander said...


Wir wunchen dir ein guttes neues Jahr!

lidia said...

"I am a scholar on this issue" - what a chuzpa! A scholar with MA (A being an Art of torturing?)

And I am an expert in Zionism, even though I would prefer some more nice field - for ex, the manholes' maintenance.

Anonymous said...

Very well put Lysander
Happy new year everyone

N. Friedman said...


Happy New Year to you as well.

And, given the festivities: Ess gezunterhait!!!