tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34135100.post3843900096778309336..comments2024-01-21T02:42:13.447-05:00Comments on Middle East Reality: The final moments of US colonial control of EgyptArnold Evanshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11445744338502151561noreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34135100.post-18024446624867075262012-04-06T17:35:20.790-04:002012-04-06T17:35:20.790-04:00Most pre-WWII European Jews were not Zionists. Th...Most pre-WWII European Jews were not Zionists. The Nazis were crucial to the Zionization of the international Jewish community, both because a disproportionate number of anti-Zionist Jews were murdered in the Holocaust, and also because the Holocaust seemed to prove that the Zionists were right (in the sense that Jews would only be ever safe in a Jewish state).<br /><br />And about Lebanon, wasn't much of the trouble there caused by outside powers? Lebanon -- by its very existence as a Middle Eastern country where Muslims peacefully co-existed with a large non-Muslim population -- was subversive to Zionism. And there were also unwelcome intrusions by PLO terrorists and Syrian imperialists as well!George Cartyhttp://www.facebook.com/people/George-Carty/669388594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34135100.post-44302069207450536392012-04-06T15:20:29.854-04:002012-04-06T15:20:29.854-04:00 Lidia writes: "NO, they were NOT allies.&quo... Lidia writes: "NO, they were NOT allies." Well, these "NOT allies" started a war together, invading Poland together. If that is not an alliance, nothing is.<br /><br />Shahak is not an historian and his understanding of the relationship of a small number of Jews with the Nazis is irrelevant. Do you have an actual historian who supports what you quote Shahak saying? Of course not because it is all nonsense.<br /><br />I do not ask you to like Israel or Jews, Lidia. But, you ought consider just how stupid what you write is. It has no basis in logic or fact.N. Friedmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34135100.post-3083870338919239692012-04-06T05:58:02.150-04:002012-04-06T05:58:02.150-04:00Zionism IS a settler colonialism, and POV is the o...Zionism IS a settler colonialism, and POV is the only which matters, because it is one of the victims of such colonialism. Not mentioning that Zionists were quite often about them being colonizers - you see, colonialism was still fashionable back then between colonizers, now they use another words :( <br /><br />A racist Zionist could say what he wants, but I still strongly recommend you "Iron wall" by Jabotinski - not because other Zionists did not see the Zionism in the same manner, but because J made the most concise and open case exactly for Zionism being a colonialism. <br /><br />Hitler is sure to blame, because otherwise Zionists could NOT find enough Jews to become colonizers of Palestine, but the role of other imperialist states were no less important. I have also admit the guilt of Stalin, the most foolish of his mistakes, I suppose.Lidianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34135100.post-72276534530269904992012-04-06T04:40:11.071-04:002012-04-06T04:40:11.071-04:00And Hitler and Stalin were de facto allies for two...And Hitler and Stalin were de facto allies for two years!<br /><br />Just because some Zionist fascists were willing to work with the Nazis didn't mean they were friendly!George Cartyhttp://www.facebook.com/people/George-Carty/669388594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34135100.post-79479538565402402462012-04-06T04:36:58.631-04:002012-04-06T04:36:58.631-04:00While Zionism may look very much like settler colo...While Zionism may look very much like settler colonialism from a Palestinian POV, the underlying motivations are rather different. It is a homeless nationalism.<br /><br />All nationalisms are by their nature oppressive to minority groups, but Zionism as a homeless nationalism was oppressive to the existing <i>majority</i> group in the area where it chose to establish its new homeland.<br /><br />I like to blame Hitler for the Israeli-Arab conflict, as without the Holocaust there would have been no Israel, but just another "Lebanon" with a Jewish minority instead of a Christian one.George Cartyhttp://www.facebook.com/people/George-Carty/669388594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34135100.post-32373840486039403022012-04-05T14:26:41.419-04:002012-04-05T14:26:41.419-04:00I see there are more than usual Zionists in the bl...I see there are more than usual Zionists in the blog :)<br /><br />They use any lie and spin to mask the very simple truth - Zionism is a colonialism, and Palestine is the object of their colonization and ethnic cleansing.<br /><br />Zionists could invent any pretext to deny it, but it is still the fact, and it is going more and more known out of the ME. So, Zionists are getting desperate, and try even more to present themselves as victims and Palestinians - as executioners. Chuzpa is a word too mild to their rants. Lidianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34135100.post-55798956146765781922012-04-05T14:20:40.347-04:002012-04-05T14:20:40.347-04:00Zionists were using the help of the most notorious...Zionists were using the help of the most notorious anti-Semites, including Nazis. They were interested in becoming colonial masters on others' land, and were quite open about it. In short, Zionism IS colonialism and as such is of the same nature as Nazi and Rhodes colonialism - an answer by capitalism to the class struggle.Lidianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34135100.post-66986450110530422012-04-05T11:41:26.669-04:002012-04-05T11:41:26.669-04:00 "A LIE."
No, what I wrote is demonstra... "A LIE."<br /><br />No, what I wrote is demonstrably true.N. Friedmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34135100.post-27821821483842260282012-04-05T11:40:32.768-04:002012-04-05T11:40:32.768-04:00 Have you actually read Jabotinski?
Idoubt it? In... Have you actually read Jabotinski?<br /> Idoubt it? In any event, his role in the creation of Israel was minimal. So, your discussion is nonsnse, as ususal.N. Friedmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34135100.post-23811433660806512532012-04-05T11:38:05.851-04:002012-04-05T11:38:05.851-04:00 Lidia,
Perhaps, you will notice that, at present... Lidia,<br /><br />Perhaps, you will notice that, at present, the issue in Arizona is between native born US citizens and Hispanic migrants. In the US, those who object to the migration are typically called "racist". My contention is that those who object to the migration of people are racists, just as they are labelled in the United States.<br /><br />You are correct that there are earlier natives in the US than those born here now.<br /><br /> are earlier navives<br />US.<br /><br /><br /><br />con<br />tN. Friedmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34135100.post-35970242214882993592012-04-05T08:31:48.034-04:002012-04-05T08:31:48.034-04:00Zionism was motivated by a desire to escape anti-S...Zionism was motivated by a desire to escape anti-Semitic persecution, while Rhodes's imperialism (like Nazi expansionism) was motivated by a belief that Britain was overpopulated.<br /><br />By the way, your Rhodes quote is incorrect (I found it only on Marxist sites). The correct version exposes Rhodes's Malthusianism:<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />"In order to save the forty million inhabitants of the United Kingdom <br />from a bloody civil war, our colonial statesmen must acquire new lands <br />for settling the surplus population of this country, to provide new <br />markets... The Empire, as I have always said, is a bread and butter question."George Cartyhttp://www.facebook.com/people/George-Carty/669388594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34135100.post-46430508633444108122012-04-05T00:29:50.619-04:002012-04-05T00:29:50.619-04:00Zionism was NOT "a national liberation moveme...Zionism was NOT "a national liberation movement", but a colonialist settler movement and there was a perfect match of what it was - a movement of Rhodes.<br /><br />No matter that Rhodes was using Brits and others who, supposedly, had "their own land". <br /><br />The matter was not "national", but social. Rhodes being an British imperialist wanted a place to bring the part of UK population which was not getting enough spoils from UK colonial robbery to be content, and thus was a danger to UK capitalist order. As Rhodes says in 1895 <br /><br />"The Empire is a bread and butter question. If you want to avoid civil war, you must become imperialists."<br /><br /><br /><br />By the way, Zionism was born about the same time. Lidianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34135100.post-39800033447909253782012-04-05T00:20:19.296-04:002012-04-05T00:20:19.296-04:00"However, it was clearly not the aim, at leas..."However, it was clearly not the aim, at least not the hope, of the Zionist movement to displace anyone."<br /><br />A LIE. <br /><br />"Arizonians"? What does it mean? The white settlers of what is now Arizona are the same as Zionist Jews, and Palestinians who who were natives of the land were against Zionists exactly on the same basis as Naives in what now is called Arizona were against European settler.<br /><br />Zionists were quite open in their writings, equating Zionism with white settlers and Palestinians with "Indians", see the same Jabotinski "Iron wall"Lidianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34135100.post-12127469269773620452012-04-04T16:27:55.087-04:002012-04-04T16:27:55.087-04:00George,
Some take the view that Zionism is a nati...George,<br /><br />Some take the view that Zionism is a national liberation movement. I think there is something to the argument. However, it was clearly not the aim, at least not the hope, of the Zionist movement to displace anyone.<br /><br />I think it is more accurate to assert that Palestinians were victims of their politics, most particularly the politics developed by al-Hussayni and his family, which viewed Jews much the same way - only with far more vehemence - that Arizonans anti-immigration groups think of Hispanics. Had, instead, the Palestinians followed the ideas of the Nashashibi family, I rather suspect that a compromise might have been worked out. I take this after reading a stellar book by Hillel Cohen, called Army of Shadows. It is about the effort by Jews to purchase land in the country and the reaction taken by Palestinians. As Cohen notes, there was a sizable group of Palestinians who wanted to live and let live, another 20% or so who even sided with the Zionists and 20% or so who were akin to the anti-immigration group of Arizona, except that this noted 20% was exceeding violent, something which is not the case in Arizona. Cohen, you will note, is partisan in favor of the Palestinians but he is also an honest historian; and there is a substantial record of collaboration; something which would not have been possible if there was uniformity of opinion. Likewise, the al-Hussayni group made it a capital offense, not to mention a violation of their religious faith, to sell to Jews, which shows pretty clearly that not all Arabs opposed Zionism.<br /><br />The Jews, to note, were not sufficiently single directed to want to drive away the Palestinians. Most people wanted to live and let live. I might add, there are countless records of good-bye dinners during the 1948 war, in which Palestinians hosted their Jewish friends, saying goodbye; such people not being driven out but leaving at the demands, backed by violence, from their Arabs allied with al-Hussayni. Of course, some people were also driven out by the Zionists, but, frankly, that is a comparatively small number and, with a few exceptions, such was not part of any orders from up high; rather, was the result of the course of fighting. Jews, it should be noted, were also displaced in large numbers; hence, the Jewish Quarter in the old city of Jerusalem, i.e., in the area claimed by the PA as its capitol was cleansed of Jews during the 1948 war; that was intentional, by the way, as was the cleansing of Jews from various towns in what is now called the West Bank; that included the cleansing of Jews with roots in the area going back to pre-Islamic times.Nef131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34135100.post-56932488308078521692012-04-04T16:07:09.202-04:002012-04-04T16:07:09.202-04:00 Hi George,
I think you ask a good question.
Her... Hi George,<br /><br />I think you ask a good question.<br /><br />Here is a guess at the answer. <br /><br />The Nazis are universally hated, except in the Arab world, where a great many remain sympathetic (e.g., those in the Muslim Brotherhood, which, by the way, was funded directly by the Nazis at one time).<br /><br /><br />Those who wrote the Hamas Covenant know that much of the world despises the Nazis; hence, the tying of Jews to the Nazis and Nazi crimes is intended to slander the Jewish enemies of the Hamas. <br /><br />[Note: The other half of the equation related to calling Jews "Nazis" is that the crimes of the Nazis are said either to have been exaggerated by Jews or to have been made up entirely; either way, the argument by those who assert that lie is that Jews created the Holocaust in order to create their "criminal" state, gaining sympathy they are supposedly not due; and, related to that whopper, Jews, in order to build their criminal state, committed a crime as great as the Nazis, if not greater (depending on the degree of Holocaust denial involved) and plan to commit another crime against the Palestinians and, more generally, all Muslims and Islam itself, in some versions of this argument).] <br /><br />Nonetheless, quite a bit of material in the Hamas Covenant comes directly from Nazi propaganda, much of it the work of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.Nef131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34135100.post-47143246286154219392012-04-04T15:39:25.355-04:002012-04-04T15:39:25.355-04:00Zionism was in the unique position of being a home...Zionism was in the unique position of being a homeless nationalism.<br /><br />Most other nationalisms involved people who already had a homeland (in this sense, a geographic area in which they were the majority population) and their purpose was either to liberate the homeland from foreign rule, or (in the case of Germany and Italy) to unify it under a single government.<br /><br />By contrast, the Jews had no land in which they were a majority. This meant that Zionism was a national liberation movement, but also at the same time an ideology of ethnic cleansing.George Cartyhttp://www.facebook.com/people/George-Carty/669388594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34135100.post-16791830224178757772012-04-04T15:35:57.556-04:002012-04-04T15:35:57.556-04:00If Hamas refer to Zionists as Nazis, that must eit...If Hamas refer to Zionists as Nazis, that must either mean that the Nazis are just as much a symbol of evil in the Muslim world as they are in the West, or that Hamas is cynically trying to appeal to Westerners. Which do you think it is?George Cartyhttp://www.facebook.com/people/George-Carty/669388594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34135100.post-24085406926156695452012-04-03T16:45:19.592-04:002012-04-03T16:45:19.592-04:00 George,
It is not that ironic. Conspiracy theori... George,<br /><br />It is not that ironic. Conspiracy theories about Jews were commonplace in European history. When you hear Europeans, today, assert that Zionists are trying to control the world, you are hearing the very same nonsense asserted in previous generations, substituting the word Zionists for Jews. However, the content and alleged aims are the very same.<br /><br />There were conspiracies in Europe about Jews murdering Christians for use in religious ceremonies. These are too numerous to list.<br /><br />In Spain, Jews were accused of being insincere converts and, in documents uncovered relatively recently, an entire theory was developed by Spainards that Jews were incapable, according to the Bible, of becoming true Christians; hence, whatever small number of converts were insincere, all were suspect, thus leading to an obsession in Spain in the form of a long term, multi-century inquisition to weed out supposedly secret Jews. <br /><br />Such conspiracies about Jews are commonplace, for that matter, in Arab history. Among the most infamous is the Damascus blood libel allegations, of 1840.<br /><br />Russia was, in the decades immediately before 1917, leader among Antisemitic regimes. However, there was no shortage of Antisemitism anywhere in Europe or the Arab world. It was the norm.<br /><br />That, I might add, is why the very topic of this website is so incredibly wrongheaded. Viewing Israel's establishment in the context that Jews were colonizers - akin to the Europeans who colonized South Africa, as opposed to what they were, namely, refugees from oppression throughout Europe and the Arab world, is so ignorant, historically speaking, to be offensive. I find it pretty nauseating, whether or not the Israelis were angelic or nasty in coming to power or in governance.N. Friedmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34135100.post-91179175129262415332012-04-03T16:24:35.579-04:002012-04-03T16:24:35.579-04:00 You are quite correct about this Mr. Carty.
Howe... You are quite correct about this Mr. Carty.<br /><br />However, if we are going to be historical about the matter, it is worth noting that Nazi views about a prospective Israel changed over time. Early on, they saw an opportunity to gain cash. Later, they saw some advantage, due to al-Hussayni's influence, in siding with the Arabs - an odd fit, since the Nazis thought that Arabs were not any better than farm animals; that was, to note, higher than they Nazis thought of Jews.<br /><br />There were some attempts, by Zionists, to buy some Jews from the Nazis, on the idea of rescuing as many people as they could. The Nazis, however, decided that their best approach to the problem was to continue their invasion of Arab lands - allegedly in support of people they considered below human - on the expectation that they would reach Palestine. Attached to their invading army - including the Afrika Korps - was an extermination squad, as the recent research of Klaus-Michael Mallmann and Martin Cüppers proved, finding the plan and the people involved. The Nazi plan was stopped at El Alamein in November 1942, when the British won the battle there.N. Friedmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34135100.post-32207410958342876602012-04-03T16:17:43.202-04:002012-04-03T16:17:43.202-04:00Hamas is inspired in part by the Nazis. The refer ...Hamas is inspired in part by the Nazis. The refer to Israelis as Nazis for the same reason that Lidia does, namely, to smear the Israelis.N. Friedmannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34135100.post-87332576902165894842012-04-03T15:01:23.382-04:002012-04-03T15:01:23.382-04:00From here have you got the info about Balfour?
A...From here have you got the info about Balfour? <br /><br />Anyway, Pleve - the pogromist minister of Tsar - was quite happy to help Zionists. Zionists were NOT going to turn Jews against Tsar, as did non-Zionist socialist JewsLidianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34135100.post-79857595926444916382012-04-03T14:53:35.364-04:002012-04-03T14:53:35.364-04:00No, Nazis supported Zionism because they wanted Ge...No, Nazis supported Zionism because they wanted Germany (Europe) Juden-Frei and maybe to make a lot of headache to UK in Palestine.<br /><br />I guess you could have heard about the logic of today pro-Zionist anti-Semites - i.e. Christian Zionists in USA, they DO want all Jews in Palestine for the faster end of the world - and the demise of all Jews who would not convert to Christianity. <br /><br />Anyway, Arabs were not of much help for Nazis, while some Zionists (Stern gang) did helped Nazis in Palestine against UK. Lidianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34135100.post-75316796532184836842012-04-03T14:07:35.212-04:002012-04-03T14:07:35.212-04:00Read my other post on Nazi support for Zionism -- ...Read my other post on Nazi support for Zionism -- the only reason for it was that concentrating the world's Jews in Palestine would make it easier for the Nazis to wipe them out...George Cartyhttp://www.facebook.com/people/George-Carty/669388594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34135100.post-49292426622201994882012-04-03T13:57:40.955-04:002012-04-03T13:57:40.955-04:00If Hamas had anything to do with Nazis, they would...If Hamas had anything to do with Nazis, they would support Zionism :)<br />Nazis were VERY helpful to Zionism, from the beginning, but Zionists do not like to be reminded of it. Hamas position against Zionism is based on the elementary fact - they are natives of Palestine, and Zionism is a colonial movement to grab Palestine. All else is not so important.<br /><br />By the way, al-Hussayni Did was the Mufti of Jerusalem, but he was NOT " leader of the Palestinian Arabs". He was a quite marginal figure when he tried to get help from Nazis and could not help them in turn - he had NO power. <br /><br />A Zionist racist is lying here, as he does usually, as all Zionists usually lie - the truth cannot help their case, of course.Lidianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34135100.post-64690821880524959962012-04-03T13:55:54.538-04:002012-04-03T13:55:54.538-04:00 If the Nazis supported Zionism, it would only hav... If the Nazis supported Zionism, it would only have been because the Zionists planned to concentrate the world's Jews in one place (Palestine), meaning that the Nazis could destroy them more easily.<br /><br />They'd probably use the Arabs to wipe out the Jews, before enslaving the Arabs. After all, every people that co-operated with the Nazis were ultimately knifed in the back, except the Japanese and even then it was probably only because the Nazis never got the chance to betray them...George Cartyhttp://www.facebook.com/people/George-Carty/669388594noreply@blogger.com